Esben Kran joins the podcast to discuss why securing AGI requires more than traditional cybersecurity, exploring new attack surfaces, adaptive malware, and the societal shifts needed for resilient defenses. We cover protocols for safe agent communication, oversight without surveillance, and distributed safety models across companies and governments.

Learn more about Esben's work here.

00:00 – Intro and preview

01:13 – AGI security vs traditional cybersecurity

02:36 – Rebuilding societal infrastructure for embedded security

03:33 – Sentware: adaptive, self-improving malware

04:59 – New attack surfaces

05:38 – Social media as misaligned AI

06:46 – Personal vs societal defenses

09:13 – Why private companies underinvest in security

13:01 – Security as the foundation for any AI deployment

14:15 – Oversight without a surveillance state

17:19 – Protocols for safe agent communication

20:25 – The expensive internet hypothesis

23:30 – Distributed safety for companies and governments

28:20 – Cloudflare’s “agent labyrinth” example

31:08 – Positive vision for distributed security

33:49 – Human value when labor is automated

41:19 – Encoding law for machines: contracts and enforcement

44:36 – DarkBench: detecting manipulative LLM behavior

55:22 – The AGI endgame: default path vs designed future

57:37 – Powerful tool AI

01:09:55 – Fast takeoff risk

01:16:09 – Realistic optimism